Private Conversation and Darshan #1397

Shri Hit Radha Keli Kunj, Vrindavan: private conversation with revered Shri Hit Premanand Govind Sharan Ji Maharaj. Sadhaks ask questions about their lives and sadhana, and Maharaj Ji resolves them.

Full Discourse

Vijay Kumar Ji from Rajasthan, Radha, Shri Harivansh, Shri Harivansh Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji, by your grace the daily routine is continuously going well. Shri Ji also gives the experience of being together from time to time. But along with this, the defects that arise in the mind during worship—I am able to manage most of the other defects by your grace. But the mind repeatedly generates defects. The defects that are stored in our chip get deleted. The mind is like such a chip in which impressions of crores of births are stored. Of crores of births.

The more knowledge you obtain, the more knowledge you will have of past, future, and present. Look, maya's work is to keep drawing a veil. If I ask you right now, what did you eat the day before yesterday afternoon? Then you will have to think. You will slowly go back. If I ask you, on a particular date of a month ago, what did you find? It is impossible to tell—absolutely not. Look, in this very birth we stayed in our mother's womb for 9 months. We don't have knowledge of even a single second—what experience was happening in the mother's womb. In this very birth we were there, we don't have knowledge of even one second—what experience was happening. Our memory is lost like this. In the mind are stored the dirty habits and good habits of crores of births.

When we do bhajan, these come out. Because a pure mind is where one finds the Lord. So if we don't do bhajan, they keep accumulating. Just as a CCTV camera keeps covering everything on its own. Similarly the mind and eyes, together with the ears and speech, keep filling all kinds of dirt. When it is filling, we don't know. Just like the garbage here—we don't know when it filled up. But if you stand up now and lie down to sleep, you will see garbage coming out. Garbage didn't come out before. Just like this, we didn't notice when garbage came into our mind. Now when we sit in bhajan, it starts—dirty, dirty thoughts, worldly thoughts, very bad thoughts. Then it seems to them, we never did bhajan like this before. Since we started bhajan, how are such dirty thoughts coming? This means the worst things—those aren't coming. That is the chip stored in the mind from birth after birth. Those are coming out. Let the name be my guard day and night, your constant remembrance. Now day and night the guard of the name can come. Then dirt, garbage and filth cannot remain inside. Because the name of God is running, so it is coming out repeatedly.

Now like, once a work-related thought came out. The second time again the same work-related thought. The third time again the same work-related thought. Then they think, when did it get deleted? They were saying it got deleted. If there are a billion work messages, it will come a billion times. So our mind is mostly filled with garbage. We should do bhajan with patience. Very quickly things are getting deleted, everything is going. And when the mind becomes pure, then God will be attained. Those who do naam jap cannot have defects inside. Because the name is a guard day and night. The name is the guard. So those defects are coming out. You will also get joy while doing jap. Look, these are coming out.

You are thinking about it, they are coming, and if you start fighting them, your practice becomes weak. They will stick. You shouldn't fight them either. From the worst thought, just see that it is coming out. Don't take pleasure in it in the mind. Your whole mind is filled with the movie. Look, I will show you with a picture. If you are thinking of rasgulla, then from the taste—whenever you experienced that taste in life—you will bring out the taste from that day, that date and show it. Look, what will come? Eat rasgulla, give up the mala. They will say, "Give up the mala, eat rasgulla." You stay quiet. Don't say anything. You have to sign. Yes? Stay quiet. From Radha, Radhavallabh is emerging continuously. Radhavallabh—I am telling you from experience. I am not telling you from what I have read and studied. I am telling you from my own experience. They are emerging continuously. Only then does the mind become pure. From doing bhajan, slowly, slowly, slowly the mind becomes pure. Look, its sign is this: when you weren't doing bhajan.

In a minute the mind wasn't attached to God. Today you do bhajan, so today you are understanding the words of satsang. The mind is becoming attached to God. And you have started recognizing that this mind is dirty and this part of the mind is good. This advice—its dirty part and its good part. Before, when a bad deed would happen, a pride would awaken. Today if a bad deed happens, you will feel like crying. There will be burning. The mind has become very pure. And before it was that, "Today I did this deed. Next time I will do this." In that there comes an enthusiasm and pride-born arrogance.

"I enjoyed this pleasure. I did this deed. Today if you talk of enjoying something with joy, the joy won't remain. The pleasure happened too, so you will burn and cry. Then that mistake—whoever you are sad about, that will come back very rarely. And if you became sadder, it would stop coming altogether. When we experience pleasure mixed with pain, it makes a place in our house. In the heart-like home, that desire makes a base. It keeps causing distraction again and again. So from doing bhajan, our desires are destroyed. We should do bhajan experiencing this.

Yes, Ravikant Srivastava Ji, Varanasi. Radhe, Radhe—Radhe, Radhe. Maharaj Ji, Maharaj Ji, even though a human is a part of God, why do mistakes happen from humans, and how is continuous correction possible over these mistakes? Because that person, considering themselves a part of God—where are they doing that? They are considering themselves a human. A man. The body-sense. When do they contemplate God? Nor is there recognition of being a part of God. The recognition is that I am a man. Brother, that is part of nature. Not a part of God. Whose question is this?

So are you understanding this? A human being is merely an instrument. You are becoming that instrument only. Are you honestly an instrument alone, or are you the doer? When you act as the doer or as an instrument, if you act as the doer, then you will have to bear the consequences. Become an instrument, and everything will happen right now. Be an instrument only, an instrument only. "I will accomplish it, you just draw the bow. I will accomplish everything," God is saying. You say I am doing it. You yourself—because if you speak falsely here, degradation will come. There is no place for deception here, is there? This is the place to be free from deception. So look within yourself. You yourself make all the resolutions.

You yourself perform all the actions. You yourself experience all the consequences. So you are not an instrument. You are the doer and the experiencer. Then such a soul, deluded by ego—these are God's words—"considers itself the doer." And that egoistic person then experiences degradation or elevation according to their actions. If they perform righteous actions, they will go to heaven. If they perform unrighteous actions, they will go to hell. If righteous and unrighteous are mixed, they will come to the human world. If both righteous and unrighteous are destroyed, then one attains God. So where are we as instruments? If one becomes an instrument, like a water wheel turning, or like a swing swinging—you are just sitting. The entire process is happening through the swing, is it not? The wheel turns like that, going up and down.

Now if you claim that action as your own, then your false claim becomes ego. You are swinging in the swing of nature's operation. Sometimes the quality of purity comes, sometimes passion, sometimes darkness. When purity comes, sattvic feelings arise. When passion comes, rajasic feelings arise. When darkness comes, tamasic feelings arise. But you are not acknowledging that these actions are happening through the impulse of maya's qualities. You believe, "I became angry."

"I ate this, I drank this, I did this." Is that not what is inside you? This results in bondage. This results in degradation. Just drop this. Just know this one thing: I am merely an instrument. Just this—whoever realizes they are merely an instrument, that the entire play is happening through nature, through maya—then they are liberated while living. They have released their grip on objects. Whether they renounce the enjoyment of objects or not makes no difference. Even if they destroy the entire creation, it makes no difference. Because they are merely an instrument. Whatever is happening is happening. Whether it is bad or good, it is happening according to the qualities. The qualities are impelled by maya. Maya is impelled by Brahm. You are merely an instrument. Then you are liberated while living.

But it is not so with us. We are the doer, we are the experiencer. We enjoy happiness, we seek happiness. Then all of this is deception again. This is precisely what we need to be free from. Like when one becomes an instrument—without God's power, not even a leaf can move, can it? So when do you think about this? When do you think about this? You just speak it while giving a discourse.

Do you ever contemplate it? Are you constantly seeing that it is happening—"I am merely a witness, I am merely an instrument, everything is happening"? Radha Radha Radha Radha Radha—everything is happening. Then you will become the soul. From within you will become a great soul. Just hold onto one thing: I am merely an instrument. Everything is being accomplished by God. I am an instrument. Everything is being accomplished by God. If this contemplation keeps flowing repeatedly, then there will be no contemplation of lust, no contemplation of anger. When there is contemplation of lust and anger, wrong actions happen. And when you become an instrument, "I am being guided by God, I am a part of God," then all these things will cease. You will become a great soul automatically.

So what do we do? We take hold of one point of something and don't understand its resolution. So when we speak in a gathering of saints, it will seem flat.

No. The truth is this: everything is merely an instrument, impelled by the three qualities, the entire world of maya is functioning. And it is Brahm that gives impulse to all of maya.

Maya is impelled by Brahm, the three qualities are impelled by maya, the entire animate and inanimate world is impelled by the three qualities. Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesh, too—impelled by the quality of passion, they create the universe. Impelled by the quality of purity, they sustain the universe. Impelled by the quality of darkness, they dissolve the universe. Now they are not doing it. They are impelled. Therefore they are not bound.

But we do it. Righteous actions—you saw them with wrong vision. Unrighteous actions. Today I went to satsang. Today I met with a saint. Today I had darshan of Bihari Ji. This is righteous. And unrighteous I also did. So will I not get the fruits of both? Or does liberation ever come like this?

By Bihari Ji's will you became an instrument and had His darshan. By Bihari Ji's will you went to satsang and satsang happened.

No. You did not go to satsang. God did.

Then start seeing God everywhere. See now—you will start becoming liberated while living. So is God not everywhere? Why? Because. Because we are ignorant. If we become truly wise, then the matter is such.

Like a man sitting in a train who was running in the compartment. So people asked him, "Brother, what is your problem? Sit down." He said, "I need to reach a certain station quickly." So they said, "The train is moving. Sit down. Sit down. The train is moving. The wheel of time is turning. Sit down at God's feet. Whatever He wants to make happen will happen exactly that way."

But we are not like that. Honestly, we are the doer, we are the experiencer. Therefore we are obtaining bondage. And if the sense of being doer and experiencer is removed, then we have no bondage. No bondage of any kind ever. We were liberated while living, we are liberated while living, and we will remain liberated while living. No one can bind a part of God.

He himself is trapped. Bound like a monkey in a pit. Goswami Ji has said that when consciousness and matter become entangled—though it is false—it is difficult to escape. There is such a knot between consciousness and matter. Although a knot cannot truly exist between them, yet it is difficult to be free from it. Bound like a monkey, the difficulty is this: like a parrot—to catch it, they place a pole, and by pole they mean a hand-fan, a hand-held fan. With that, they coat the top with some gum-like substance and stick grain seeds on it. The parrot comes and sits to peck at the seeds and gets caught in the gum. Now it grips tighter. If it let go, it would be free. But it does not let go. It thinks: if I let go, I will die, because if I reverse direction it will go upside down. It has gotten caught, the pole has weight—if it let go, it would fly away. Now like a monkey with a pot—they fill a pot with seeds or chickpeas. The monkey, being greedy, puts both hands in to grab. Now it cannot get out. The monkey is trapped, the difficulty is this: if the monkey let go of its fist, it could escape. But it thinks someone has caught me—what should I do, what should I not do? This is how we are. Wife, son, family, body—we cling to all through attachment. Enjoyments of every kind, homes, wealth, things of all sorts. And we hold them through the five sense organs: sound, touch, form, taste, smell. In this pot of the world, time comes as the bird-catcher, kills us, and carries us away.

But nobody actually catches us. Tell me, who catches us? We catch ourselves. We have taken the body as ours, we have taken the body's relations as ours, we have taken enjoyments as ours. This is our bondage. And escape would be this: understand that all this runs on its own. You are merely an instrument. If only this knowledge came within you—that you are instrumental only—and if you always kept God in your contemplation, then you would become a sinless, great soul. You would receive no punishment. Whether the jiva dies, whether the jiva lives, whether great merit accrues, whether great sin accrues—you would have nothing to experience.

That is why jivanmukti happens. For a jivanmukti, the great soul, merit and sin do not form. They will form for us because we are filled with ego. So if that inner ego dissolves... if something comes out on the tongue, from the tongue you say "I did it," but from within, what is running is that this is all simply... then it will not bind you. Right now, both from the tongue and from within, we say "I"—look in the mirror and it seems "I am." Just this is bondage. If this bondage is cut, you are the form of the Paramatma. You never contemplate your own form.

Do you ever contemplate your own form? Because you have never known yourself. You are only repeating what you have heard—that you are a part of God. Yes? And when you come to know yourself, then you are not just a part of God. You are God Himself. Whether Ganges water is one spoonful, it is Ganges water. Whether it is a tanker, it is Ganges water. And whether it is a stream, it is Ganges water. Ganges water is Ganges water. So:

*Purnam adah purnam idam
Purnat purnam udachyate
Purnasya purnam adaya
Purnam evavashishyate*

That Paramatma is complete, so His portion, His part, is also complete. Ishvar-jiva is indestructible consciousness, untainted, an ocean of natural bliss. An ocean of natural bliss—such is the Paramatma form. He needs nothing. He is one whose desires are fulfilled. But we, though we are one whose desires are fulfilled, because of body-attachment have become desiring.

Because of body-attachment, our downfall has happened. Whatever body we receive, we take it as our own form. Bodies keep coming. Karmas keep forming. We keep getting separated. Then in the body again—Punar api janmaṁ punar api maraṇaṁ punar api janani jaṭhare. This cycle is running. Now if there is knowledge of this and if doership and enjoyership disappear, then jivanmukti happens. This is why the satpuruṣ says this. This is why adhyatma is this, and this cannot happen without bhajan. It will not happen by thought and intellect alone. There must be bhajan. Do nam jap intensely. Are you doing the jap of God's name?

Yes.

Do nam jap intensely and serve others. And let no sinful action come about. And hold this understanding: everything is running like a machine. My effort cannot make anything happen. My making cannot create anything. This is the flow of prakriti running. I am a part of the Paramatma. Do some contemplation and do nam jap. Then gradually, light will dawn within you. You will find the path where you will reach your own form. Sin happens. Realization comes later as we look back. We don't realize in the moment that we are committing sin.

Yes.

Because desire is there at that time. Like when our desire is afflicted by hunger, nothing else will seem good. First we need food. Like that, when there is anxiety for desires, nothing else seems good. After fulfilling the desire, then sit and decide whether it was sin or merit. At that time, the ghost of desire was riding us. It made its home. And the ghost of desire is the wish to enjoy happiness. All efforts and desires are for happiness. And happiness is in the Paramatma. We project it onto prakriti. That is why until now we have not been able to be happy.

We keep enjoying prakriti again and again. Happiness does not come. And we desire happiness. And it is in the Paramatma. We are turned away from the Paramatma, so happiness has never been found. Ever since creation, we have just been enjoying. If we hold discrimination and turn ourselves and turn toward the Paramatma, then right now the experience of happiness will begin. But we are turned away from the Paramatma. When the jiva obtains the grace of the Bhagavan, when birth and death are destroyed, the sins of crores of births are destroyed. When the jiva obtains the grace of the Bhagavan. Therefore, take refuge in the Bhagavan.

Listen to the sacred leelas of Bhagvan. Chant Bhagvan's naam abundantly, perform naam kirtan, and serve others with bhagvat bhava. If ever the opportunity to serve one's mother and father comes, one should certainly do it. It purifies the body.

Vandana Mishra from Chhattisgarh: Maharaj Ji, from your mouth we have learned that victory over maya is attained through vivek. Gurudev, what is the difference between a prema bhakt and a viveki bhakt?

A prema bhakt does not wish to escape from maya, nor does he wish to be saved from suffering. He only wishes to love Bhagvan. In him there is no desire. He has no desire of any kind whatsoever. But a viveki person, through vivek, renounces the unreal, becomes established in the real, and wishes to attain moksha. There is a difference between the prema bhakt and the viveki bhakt. The viveki has his own strength, and the prema bhakt has Bhagvan's strength. The prema bhakt only wishes to love Bhagvan. His constant prayer at the feet of Bhagvan is:

धर्म ना अर्थ ना काम रुचि गति न चाह निर्वाण जन्मजनम रति राम पद यह वरदान
Not dharma, not artha, not desire, not heaven do I seek—birth after birth, may I have love for Shri Ram's feet; this is my boon

'I do not desire artha, nor dharma, nor kama, nor moksha. May I be born again and again, but let there be love at your feet.' He does not desire moksha. He does not desire the removal of suffering. He does not pray to Bhagvan: 'Remove my suffering. Give me wealth. Give me honor and status. Give me worldly happiness or otherworldly happiness.' He only desires Bhagvan. Janam janam rati ram pad—this boon, O Lord. 'O Bhagvan, at your feet this is our constant prayer: whatever by my karma causes me to be born, in every birth let me love you. Let me chant your naam, let me perform your bhakti.' This is what prema bhakts desire.

The viveki is one who has knowledge of the unreal and the real. So as much as the body and the world are unreal, he renounces all that and desires moksha. He wishes to be liberated. But the prema bhakt does not wish to be liberated. He wishes to be born again and again, but O Bhagvan, let me chant your naam. Let me perform naam kirtan. Let me listen to your leela kathas. Let me weep in your love, let me long in your love. This is the bhakti the prema bhakt desires.

Maharaj Ji, is bhakti the cause of gyana, or is gyana the cause of bhakti?

Both are complementary to each other. Through ordinary gyana, we move towards bhakti. Ordinary gyana manifests through shraddha. When we first come to the saints through shraddha, when we first listen to satsang, we gain gyana—that we should not do this. I have made many mistakes. Many sins have accumulated in me, and this we should do, but I have not done it. I have not performed bhajan, nor have I done sadhana. So this gyana is obtained. Now he enters into ordinary bhakti, and from ordinary bhakti, through prema-lakshana bhakti, he moves towards extraordinary bhakti. Then he attains pure gyana. Both are complementary to each other. Just as there cannot be a tree without a seed, nor a seed without a tree. Do you understand? Similarly, there cannot be bhakti without gyana, nor gyana without bhakti. So both are necessary.

First ordinary gyana, then extraordinary bhakti, then extraordinary knowledge:

जानत तुम्हें तुम्हें हो जाए वो ब्रह्म स्वरूप भगवत स्वरूप हो जाता है जो भगवान को जानना चाहता है पाना चाहता है जहां भक्ति शुरू की तो सोई जाने जे देव जनाई
When you know him, he becomes brahma swaroop, bhagvat swaroop—one who wishes to know Bhagvan, to attain him: from where bhakti begins, there the Lord makes one know

So neither is gyana insufficient, nor is bhakti insufficient; both are necessary.

Just as through gyana we know you—who are you? What is your glory? What is your nature? This knowing is gyana. Now we love you. This is bhakti. So to know Bhagvan is gyana, and only through knowing comes love. Our Bhagvan is so glorious. Our Bhagvan is so compassionate. Our Bhagvan shows us such mercy. He grants us grace. Our Bhagvan will protect us everywhere. This is ordinary gyana. From here bhakti begins. When Bhagvan is worshipped, this gyana becomes:

Bhagvan is in all, so He is here too. Bhagvan is everywhere, so He is with us too. Bhagvan is everyone's, so He is mine too—and he becomes bhagvat swaroop. Then there is no more need for protection, for rescue, for any request. He becomes bhagvat swaroop.

मम दर्शन फल परम अनूपा जीव पाव निज सहज स्वरूपा
My darshan's fruit is supremely beautiful; the soul attains its own natural form

This is the fruit of bhakti. When direct realization of Bhagvan comes, the soul attains its own atma swaroop. This is pure gyana. There comes the experience of brahma swaroop. So gyana is devotional in nature, and from bhakti comes gyana and dispassion.

But from ordinary gyana, bhakti arises; from bhakti, extraordinary gyana arises.

Dr. Narendra Dev: Radhe Radhe, Maharaj Ji, countless prostrations at your feet.

Maharaj Ji, bhakti mata Mira has a pad:

गली तो चारों बंद हुई है मैं हरि से मिलूं कैसे जाऊं ऊंची नीची राह रटीली पांव नहीं ठहराऊं
The four streets are closed; how shall I meet Hari? The path is high and low, muddy; my feet cannot find rest

And at the end she says: 'Jugan jugan se bichri Mira, satguru dei milaai'—'For ages I have been separated, O Mira; the satguru has united me.'

Maharaj Ji, which streets or valleys is Mira speaking of in this pad, where even bhakts like Mira get trapped and suffer the pain of not meeting their beloved?

What pad is this? She says: 'The four streets are closed. How shall I meet Hari? The path is high and low, muddy; my feet cannot find rest. For ages I have been separated, O Mira; the satguru has united me.'

Look, in our inner consciousness there are four: mun, buddhi, chitta, ahankar. All four are attached to maya. If even one of these four becomes attached to Bhagvan, then one street would open, wouldn't it? But the mun is not attached to Bhagvan, the buddhi is not attached to Bhagvan, the chitta is not attached to Bhagvan, the ahankar is not attached to Bhagvan—all four streets are closed.

O Lord, regarding this inner consciousness—the mind and intellect—neither is the mun engaged, nor is the buddhi engaged, nor is the chitta engaged, nor is the ahankar engaged. All the streets are closed.

Going forward, Maharaj Ji: 'The path is high and low, muddy; my feet cannot rest.' Yes, here in the path of Bhagvan, sometimes the mun moves towards bhajan, sometimes towards pleasures.

Sometimes toward the height of bhajan, sometimes toward the low of worldly pleasures. The mind does not stay still. We cannot find stable footing in what belongs to us. But blessed be sadguru dev, that even in such closed lanes, on such paths of heights and lows, when they held our hand, they dragged us along and granted us the attainment of the supreme state. Without guru dev, there is no such capability anywhere. Meera Ji is telling this: for me, all four lanes were closed. Dharma, artha, kama, moksha—mind, intellect, consciousness, ego, and high and low tendencies—sometimes bhajan would be firm, sometimes it would become expansive.

But my condition became fixed through guru dev's grace. Otherwise, it is very difficult to emerge from this world of maya. Like an intoxicated elephant in rut, the mind cannot be kept bound with chains. Such is the mind. Such is the skilled intellect. Such is the skilled consciousness. Consciousness in contemplation of the world, intellect in conviction about the world, mind in intention toward the world, ego in action and enjoyment—these four lanes are closed. Sometimes elevated tendencies come, sometimes base tendencies come. Those movements that are high and low, and those tendencies that turn away from attainment of the Lord, are the base ones.

Those that move toward the Lord are elevated. But the condition of the mind, the state of our heart, sometimes engages in bhajan, sometimes in worldly pleasures, sometimes in renunciation, sometimes in attachment. When the sadguru held our hand, things were set right. Do you understand, brother? Yes, but they had another feeling: Meera Ji was a supreme devotee—was this for people like us? Yes, these great devotees describe the condition of minds like ours. She was immersed in the love of Shri Krishna; for her it was not a matter at all. She describes her state clearly.

Jāke sir mor mukat mero pati soi, mere to Girdhar Gopal.
He who has the peacock crown upon his head is my husband; for me it is Giridhara Gopal.

But she is describing the state. Now the creeper has spread everywhere, everyone knows; the saints sit and lose worldly shame. In such an elevated state of Radha—she, for us people. These great saints expressed humility, and they expressed it for us. She is established in wisdom of that state. She is in the state of the Lord.

Mrityunjay Pandey Ji, Radha Vallabh Shri Harivansh Maharaj, Shri Harivansh Maharaj Ji Maharaj Ji—can the experience of the Lord, of truth and maya and untruth, be had only through intellect, or is it a deeper and intimate experience of the heart through love, faith and trust?

Is depth of intellect and logic necessary to know truth? No, faith is necessary. Logic is not necessary. Faith is necessary. To attain knowledge or to attain bhakti, faith is necessary. After faith, trust is necessary. When trust is established, then conviction becomes trust, isn't it? And after trust, the knowledge that is attained is the attainment of the Lord. "The faithful one attains knowledge, devoted to that, and knowledge attained"—the word knowledge came twice, didn't it? So the faithful one devoted to the scriptures attains knowledge. Scriptural knowledge—discipline, rules, fasts, observances, dharma, actions—how they should be done. So, devoted to which knowledge is attained, they became absorbed in that. So the saint made their senses turn inward. And when the senses turned inward, then knowledge was attained. The experiential, experiential knowledge that was attained. Then they said, "attain supreme peace."

Paraṁ śāntiṁ adhigacchati.
They attain supreme peace.

"The faithful one attains knowledge, devoted to that, and knowledge attained—supreme peace they attain." In bhakti: "I bow to Bhavani and Shankara, embodiments of faith and trust, without which one cannot perceive the Lord of truth."

The Lord who dwells in my own heart. Without faith and trust, we cannot attain Him. As for logic, the capacity of intellect is that intellect is of nature, and it can only discuss matters born of the Lord's nature. The intellect cannot even touch the Lord's principle beyond nature. Goswami Tulsidas Ji wrote:

Rām atark buddhi man bānī, mati hamār suno Bhavānī.
The Lord Ram is beyond logic, intellect, and mind; O Bhavani, hear this, my understanding.

O Bhavani, my understanding is that the Lord Shri Ram is beyond mind and intellect, beyond logic. Cannot be known through logic. Then how can they be known? Then he said: "When faith and trust are established, then O Lord, you are known." So you know yourself; now the matter is settled, Maharaj Ji.

Is trust caused by intellect, or is trust caused by the heart's faith? It is the confluence of faith and trust, the confluence of intellect and logic. When we want to know something through intellect, it tests it by its own standard. So intellect is natural, born of nature. How do they speak? How do they walk? How do they eat? What do they drink? It will see natural activities, activities born of nature. But it cannot see the Lord's state, can it? That is why its perception is blind. You cannot know the inner state from someone's external actions. Then one received the darshan of great souls accomplished in brahma knowledge and lived with them. The body has such a brahmic tendency. Now people are coming for darshan. So their disciples put on clothes. Such a great, expansive body suddenly—Paramananda Swami Ji—son, daughter, belly full, sitting like that. Can you make curry? Yes Maharaj, it's been a long time since I ate curry. You would think, here are those listening to Brahma discussions asking for curry. How would you recognize them, knowing what high caliber of great soul you are? Yes Maharaj Ji, I haven't had rabri in a long time. Now you think, what play are they acting? They are not acting. You cannot even recognize what caliber of great soul they are.

Like Jadabharata—such a great satsangi was going for satsang with Kapila Bhagavan. Sitting in the palanquin, how could he know? He gave the palanquin to the divine great soul. So we can see the external nature. Through our intellect, we cannot see the Lord's state. The Lord's state is attained through faith and trust. But sir, how are faith and trust born? From the company of great souls, when we have satsang. That is why satsang is the first step of bhakti.

The first devotion is through the company of saints. This first devotion has been taught. Why? Because through it, perfection will be attained. When we engage in satsang, the first devotion is shravanam—hearing. Shravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, vishnupad sevanam, archanam, vandanam, dasyam, sakhya, atma-nivedan. These nine processes—atma-nivedan is perfection. So when did this happen? Through shravanam—when we heard from the mouths of saints about the bliss of Bhagvan, his loving nature, his compassion and grace, then faith was kindled in our hearts. When faith arose and we walked the path of truth, then we began to have experiences, and conviction developed. Do you understand? Yes. The truth here is that we must surrender our intellect.

But Maharaj Ji, all education, all worldly scriptures are devoted to sharpening the intellect. How keen can one become? How much can one understand? So after that, can one be liberated? No, brother. Hanuman Prasad Poddar Ji has a pad: "Make us devoid of intellect. The more it runs, the more it ensnares us." Maharaj Ji, for some time, as you say, keeping count and continuing to walk—then having faith in the guru, trusting that this guide is taking us where we need to go, we simply trust and keep walking, the goal will be attained. This is the essence of it. Maharaj Ji, for some time means—putting your intellect aside, let the heart's faith first follow what the acharyas do. Follow wherever Harivansh and the rasiks serve. When we have faith first, only then can we move forward.

One last question, Maharaj Ji—is living in the company of saints the same as hearing from them and living by their discipline? Or is there a difference—is one who lives far from the saint and lives by obedience to his commands greater than one who remains near him? Why? Because the one far away will not be tormented by separation. He thinks: I am far from him. But the one who follows his commands while remaining near him—there is a deficiency in him because separation does not affect him.

He too follows the commands. The other one is not openly experiencing his physical presence, but he longs for it. He is following the commands. He feels his own shortcoming. If only I could keep Gurudev's company. If only I could serve his feet. For 24 hours, gazing at his face, following his commands—he will weep, he will long. And the near one will feel proud. He will go ahead. We are abroad, Maharaj Ji. There we all blame ourselves. Yes, tell me, what? Yes, well—Bhagvan brought the Brahmin wives of Mathura, and they said: "Now we have taken your shelter." The Vedas say: whoever comes under your shelter, you never abandon. So Bhagvan said: being near me is not the sign of love.

My love grows not so much from being with me as it does from hearing my stories, from chanting my name, from meditating on me. So physical company is not necessary. What is necessary is obedience to his commands. Through obedience to commands, you will continue to experience his presence. As my Guru Ji has said: my Guru Ji sits in your mind, my Guru Ji sits in your heart. And then there is one lack—humility, one lack—the absence of ego in the heart. There is such humility: friend, I have everything, but I have never been able to serve my Gurudev's feet, I have never fed Gurudev, I have never bathed Gurudev. Are our fortunes even so great? This humility and that bhajan will take him forward. So persist, for Bhagvan has shown great grace.

This text is from automatic captions of a video—it may contain word errors. Please listen to the video for the authentic discourse.

Original video: Bhajan Marg (YouTube)